Leo and I begin our conversation by thinking together about why it is so hard to make progress on the SDGs. We talked about how, in theory, the purpose of corporations is to create value for society. I asked him why then our progress on the SDGs is so slow. Leo has a two-pronged answer: First, the problems are complicated. He quotes Amartya Sen as saying that poverty is a trap in which low-income people can’t readily pursue opportunities even when they are available because they lack childcare and healthcare and transportation and secure housing. Second, pursuing solutions by corporate leaders demands a lot of managerial attention and commitment. Leo describes how the big opportunities to create value require thinking about new products and services and business models. That’s time-consuming and hard. These two problems are at the heart of why progress has been slow.

I asked Leo about a project that he did – the results of which were recently published in the Strategic Management Journal – on how large online retailers charge higher delivery prices for goods that are sold to addresses inside the favelas of Rio de Janeiro, even when those addresses are just a few steps up the road from rich neighborhoods on the other side of a border that is only conceptual. His answer: Bad management. Managers don’t want to think about this, and because of that, they leave money on the table. Leo continued when I asked him to expand by saying that managers often don’t want to confront their own prior biases. They don’t want to understand or think differently about marginalized people. They don’t want to think about impoverishment. And in the process, they leave big business opportunities on the table.

I asked Leo as well about the role of government, and his response was that these problems are all-hands-on-deck issues. We need the government to step up as well as people acting as individuals and as corporate and NGO leaders. Everyone needs to act, he says. Good management is relevant across all sectors.

Finally, I asked Leo what makes him optimistic. We talked about our students, which was a special part of the conversation for Anita because Leo was her student just a few years ago at the Rotman School, where Leo earned his doctorate under her supervision. Leo described how he has faith in humanity. He quotes St Francis by saying that you should start by doing what is necessary and you’ll find soon enough that you are accomplishing the impossible. Leo sees in his students what I saw in him: The desire to improve; to progress; to be better.